tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post1914479751700886830..comments2023-09-13T13:47:47.106+01:00Comments on The Changing Attitude Blog: The dangerous Bishop of Durham – part 2Alexhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09163737925142519555noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-4380726368700587172009-08-13T21:01:58.624+01:002009-08-13T21:01:58.624+01:00I am very new to reading or following blogs, and r...I am very new to reading or following blogs, and really just started since this recent General Convention in the Episcopal Church this summer. Having been Ordained a Priest in TEC over forty years ago and having served as a deputy to General Conventions, I am now retired and will observe my 68th birthday this week. I served as a Curate for three years, Rector of two parishes 10 and 19 years, and Interim rector of two parishes 8 years. During that time of parish ministry I had the honor and responsibility of being elected Clergy Deputy to the General Convention six times (only four clergy and four lay people are deputies from a diocese).<br /><br />My first time was 1976, when we first adopted the 1979 Book of Common Prayer and approved the Ordination of women as Priests. There was also a proposal at that 1976 convention to allow the full inclusion of LG people into the path to Ordination. That resolution was defeated, but I joined a sizeable minorty in signing a public statement of support for such a change. Thirty three years later we have what was begun at that General Convention. <br /><br />I care very much about what goes on in the C of E. I have considered myself as serving Christ through TEC as a member of the Anglican Communion all these years. It matters who is or will be appointed the ABC, about which none of us in TEC will have a say. <br /><br />What creates anger and dismay here is when we meet that scornfully superior attitude that I met in clergy of the CE. It is exactly because we do care that anger arises. I am proud and find it heartening that the American revolution spilled over into the founding of a loyal American version of the CE that included a governing body that had a balanced number of clergy and lay deputies, itself a balance to the power of the House of Bishops. We pray for and have to trust that the Spirit guides that group of people to make decisions that are as faithful as the decisions made by the governing bodies of the other provinces. I confess that I find myself thinking that actually it may be more faithful because the presence of lay people from the beginning has made it so.<br /><br />I appreciate what Luke from Brooklyn has written, and I agree.<br /><br />I had the privilege of a Summer program at Oxford in 1992. Tom Wright filled in for a lecturer who couldn't come. I listened enthralled for 10 days. I began to read most everything he had written or was writing. But then I had the nagging feeling that it bothered me that he was so convinced of his own rightness. Then I ran into a book in which I first saw his attitude and judgment of Gay and Lesbian people. That ended it for me. I was unable to read any more of Tom Wright's writings. I am not surprised to read what he has been writing recently and to read your reports of his attitude. I appreciate being able to read this dialogue here, and apologize for being unable to express myself more briefly.David W. Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14913295238145407317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-18289090260070381222009-08-13T12:38:14.910+01:002009-08-13T12:38:14.910+01:00Nick Lincoln, have no fear. Don’t misunderstand me...Nick Lincoln, have no fear. Don’t misunderstand me; American Episcopalians certainly support the efforts of progressive British Anglicans, and you can count on that. However, most Episcopalians I know don’t lay awake at night worrying about what conservative British evos might or might not do in the foreseeable future in the C of E, or who might be appointed Archbishop of Canterbury. Here, in America, “Evangelical Christian” is almost synonymous with “Right-wing Yahoo.” If anything, we Americans find it startling that a backward looking evangelicalism has made so much headway cross the pond in the past half century.<br /><br />Anonymous: OK, now we are having more of a dialogue. Look, you British will elect/appoint/designate the Archbishop of Canterbury that you believe will best lead the C of E. Now, I might think that appointing an evangelical bishop with a right-wing agenda will significantly erode public support for your Church. But, this is your decision to make. And you must live with the consequences. For our part, TEC has affirmed its support for the Anglican Communion, and the only way con evos are going to get rid of us is to kick us out. We won’t be “walking away” voluntarily.Kurt from Brooklynnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-82103559512441487492009-08-13T12:03:01.191+01:002009-08-13T12:03:01.191+01:00Kurt from Brooklyn
Yes, you're right; there w...Kurt from Brooklyn<br /><br />Yes, you're right; there was an assumption that TEC folk take a great deal of interest in the person of the Archbishop of Canterbury and of other individuals, issues and institutions of the Churh of England, and I apologise if that came over as arrogance. <br /><br />It is, though, simply my experience that TEC folk DO take a great interest in the C of E, and are constantly posting evidence of their interest in it all over sites like this. Some, like you, make the point that you're eccelsially independent and that developments here have no relevence or significance for TEC. The first is certainly true, but the second isn't. I don't think that independence means disinterest, and the main players in TEC don't seem to work that way either. <br /><br />In general, C of E folk don't warm to preachy language; they don't respond to 'the fabric of our communion is torn at its very deepest level' rhetoric any more than TEC folk do; but neither have they yet respond to the 'It's obvious matter of justice' either. <br /><br />Most c of e folk have not advanced an opinion on any of these issues, which is why +Tom ought to be worried; he's not convincing. Those who speak here on either side - including +Tom - might represent their committed % of the churches' memership but the centre ground hasn't really given voice yet, for all the activity of CA, TA AffCath Reform, Gafcon, FoCA and others. Synod doesn't like to be forced into any kind of corner and won't be bullied by stridency. CA is having the greatest effect of any organisation, but that's not due to the position it takes half as much as the considered and careful way it approaches friends and critics alike.<br /><br />For me - I greatly like and admire the faith of the TEC folk I've come to know over the years. Your ecclesiology is very different to mine, and I wonder sometimes whether you ought to invest so much into the General Convention as you do, but it's not my system, it's yours, and it doesn't mask deep gospel concerns that we ought to be listneing to. <br /><br />The point of my post was that, for all of this, and the balance that Rowan is seeking to hold, our system is likely to throw up a successor to Rowan who is more like +Tom than not and, like it or not, that is going to impact on TEC folk, leastways, the ones I know. <br /><br /><br />Anonymous IIAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-59692368650808311762009-08-13T12:02:51.367+01:002009-08-13T12:02:51.367+01:00What anger and abuse? His article is calm and rati...What anger and abuse? His article is calm and rational, the anger is in Colin Coward's pieceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-77265419078014285282009-08-13T11:25:06.688+01:002009-08-13T11:25:06.688+01:00Actually "Anonymous" if you actually rea...Actually "Anonymous" if you actually read this article and the comments properly you'd find that they're not "verbal rotten eggs" at all. None of those words or phrases could be considered insults directed at the bishop.<br /><br />Maybe you should be asking why Tom Wright feels the need to direct so much anger and abuse towards gay Christians.Nick Lincolnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-58872438497150057272009-08-13T10:17:18.218+01:002009-08-13T10:17:18.218+01:00Erika
Verbal rotten eggs?
At Tom Wright
abuse, ...Erika<br /><br />Verbal rotten eggs?<br /><br />At Tom Wright<br /><br />abuse, dishonest,megalomaniacal, impose, unilateral, unprincipled, no basis in reality,the least Christ-like manner imaginable, His latest rhetoric is simply his latest means of getting his name in print, full of fear and rage, transfixed by the traditional notion, other emotional foot is also stuck fast, etc etcAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-84953949682916231762009-08-13T09:01:22.475+01:002009-08-13T09:01:22.475+01:00Anonymous
I think you find that the reason people ...Anonymous<br />I think you find that the reason people don't like your posts is because you hide behind no name to attack and insult, not to engage.<br />And then you're surprised at the reaction?<br />Simply throwing verbal rotten eggs is not a sign of maturity. No wonder you won't reveal who you are.<br /><br />I asked you earlier, if you want to be taken seriously, tell us precisely why you think Leonardo Ricardo's comment was bigotted and nonsense and we can have a conversation.<br /><br />Merseymike, I'm quite glad for the anonymous comment function because often Google won't recognise my account and I can only post by selecting Anonymous. It doesn't stop me from signing the comment with my name.<br />Nor would disabling anonymous comments stop people like Anonymous to spew their poison under any pseudonym. Although I agree that pseudonyms at least make it easier to distinguish between the many angry and inarticulate anonymouses.Erika Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01812376497361267014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-41395729543995873472009-08-13T00:48:12.452+01:002009-08-13T00:48:12.452+01:00Kurt from Brooklyn - I think a great many progress...Kurt from Brooklyn - I think a great many progressives in the CofE would be quite upset and disappointed to read what you wrote - we find a great deal of hope and encouragement in the Episcopal Church. If what you say is true, that<br /><br />"a good number of us on this side of the pond don’t give much of a flying fig what happens in the C of E"<br /><br />then what does that say about the future of progressives in the Anglican Communion? Somehow I think you're actually wrong, and I hope and pray that the Episcopal Church DOES care about what goes on in the CofE...Nick Lincolnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-3510713216572257452009-08-12T23:13:54.087+01:002009-08-12T23:13:54.087+01:00My contribution is not anonymous and incorporates ...My contribution is not anonymous and incorporates a link to my blog. I note that the anonymous contributors simply shout and run.<br /><br />I don't allow anonymous commentators there - perhaps Colin and Co could consider the same policy hereMerseymikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07231364271812168188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-280347012973951902009-08-12T20:46:27.852+01:002009-08-12T20:46:27.852+01:00Ricardo
Why should I share my personal details wi...Ricardo<br /><br />Why should I share my personal details with someone who is so determined to engage in personal insults for which you can have no basis. It is precisely because I wondered if I would receive this hostile reception that I have withheld any personal details. If this is how you treat your guests, perhaps I should stay away. <br /><br />The organisation of the website is an implicit invitation to anonymous comment - check the select profile box - so I do not see why you should be so annoyed when someone takes advantage of it.<br /><br />I just find it ironic the Mersymike when he complains of my anonymity is himself using a pseudonym.<br /><br />And Mr Ricardo, I never suggested that was not your name so I don't know what you are getting so angry about. Your latest outburst does however convince me that you are a bigot. Your hatred, directed at me and many of Christ's faithful servants is without basis and your rant borders on paranoia. This I understand is the dictionary definition of bigotry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-7701455456953799112009-08-12T19:37:51.112+01:002009-08-12T19:37:51.112+01:00Hey Anonymous, the cowardly commenter, my name IS ...Hey Anonymous, the cowardly commenter, my name IS Leonardo Ricardo (certainly you can read blog personal descriptions)...what´s yours? Tell us about yourself, where you live, what your feardriven background is and what´s your beef with other people, our love for one another and your interest in other peoples adult sex lives. What is it that you think you know that compels you pry into the ¨affairs¨ of others at Church? <br /><br />I´ve had a lifetime of being blessed with extensive travel, working abroad (including the U.K. and the Far East) and embracing people from dozens of cultures throughout the world...the only people I don´t TOLERATE are those that would/do HARM other human beings (that would include supporting, and being of service to, Anglicans anywhere who are spiritually, physically and emotionally damned by wacked out/bloated superstituious Primates, Witch Doctors and fearfilled Priests and/or various other selfrighteous thugs)...so, cowardly anonymous, it´s ok to say NO to you and the likes of you as you instigate difference and crimes of hate...you are irresponsible and unaccountable it seems.Leonardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16667415590825321701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-43536159858021493862009-08-12T15:37:56.707+01:002009-08-12T15:37:56.707+01:00Anonymous
Merseymike has been known on the blogs f...Anonymous<br />Merseymike has been known on the blogs for years, others who only use their first names are also regular posters on various blogs and stand by what they say. I expect if necessary, they would be happy for you to contact them personally to continue a conversation.<br />Not quite the same as just throwing out insults under the heading Anonymous, is it.<br />Or did you think your reply to Leonardo Ricardo was constructive in any meaningful way?<br /><br />No need to agree with him, but if you want yourself and your views to be taken seriously, it would help if you explained properly why you think the comment was bigotted and why it was nonsense.Erika Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01812376497361267014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-42273209018416648342009-08-12T13:55:45.509+01:002009-08-12T13:55:45.509+01:00American Episcopalians “worry” about what happens ...American Episcopalians “worry” about what happens in some Old World country? (We Yankees became both politically and ecclesialy independent more than 230 years ago). I think that, like many English con evos, Anonymous has a self-inflated view of the importance of what happens in the C of E to most American Episcopalians. Actually, a good number of us on this side of the pond don’t give much of a flying fig what happens in the C of E. A right-wing evo in Canterbury would serve just fine; probably just what it will take to put the last nail in the coffin of a state church. So, don’t worry; we certainly don’t!Kurt from Brooklynnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-32521840493578600992009-08-12T13:04:22.053+01:002009-08-12T13:04:22.053+01:00I hate seeing the divisions in our communion, but ...I hate seeing the divisions in our communion, but I am so, so glad that the TEC are demonstrating the integrity to become a place where fear, paranoia, secrecy and "don't ask, don't tell" - in terms of view or orientation - are a thing of the past.<br /><br />We need to be ourselves within the Church, just as we can be ourselves before God.Suemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03128736092253293640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-12047139530082387332009-08-12T12:50:15.475+01:002009-08-12T12:50:15.475+01:00Are you staying anonymous, second anonymous BECAUS...Are you staying anonymous, second anonymous BECAUSE you are going for a job?!!!Suemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03128736092253293640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-16226799759657903872009-08-12T12:46:39.994+01:002009-08-12T12:46:39.994+01:00Merseymike,
Is that you real name?
Leonardo Rica...Merseymike,<br /><br />Is that you real name?<br /><br />Leonardo Ricardo<br /><br />What bigoted nonsenseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-72517377841954274572009-08-12T07:19:30.745+01:002009-08-12T07:19:30.745+01:00"How realistic is Wright’s ambition to be ABC..."How realistic is Wright’s ambition to be ABC, Bill? Would the British government actually appoint someone who many Americans are growing to despise?"<br /><br /><br />Don't think the UK government cares a fig about the succession to Rowan in terms of its effect on other countries. You should worry that by the time it comes round, the appointment will still entirely be in the hands of the Church of England, with perhaps a nod in the direction of 'communion concerns', because there isn't time to change it. <br /><br />The Prime Minister has already committed to appointing English Diocesans the one name submitted by the Crown Nominations Commission. <br /><br />You should worry that, even though the Commission for a Vacancy in Canterbury is slightly differently constituted, it will still pretty much be controlled by the appointments process - and all of the paperwork for the commission is assembled and prepared in-house by C of E staffers. <br /><br />You should worry that on the 'turn-and-turn-about' principle that there will be a strong and expectation that the successor to Rowan will be an evangelical and you should worry that key lay positions in the C of E are held by Christians of a distinctly evangelical position. <br /><br />You should worry that there's not enough time now to bring in effective change to the systemm. Although given (say) a maximum of six or seven years before Rowan calls it a day, there's a UKL General Election between now and then so leglisative programmes are going to be squeezed. If TEC and CA and AFFCath and others of that ilk are not already planning how to bring their influence to bear on the processes and those individuals who will, before too much longer, be taking the quiet decisions, then all of this is just entertaining trans-atlantic public position-taking. <br /><br />Will the next +Cantuar be +Tom? Probably not, but only probably not and you shouldn't assume that your criticisms of him will rule him out. <br /><br />But what is overwhelmingly likely is that the next +Cantuar will probably have much more in common with him than you would like. <br /><br />[I'm not the other anonymous, btw - I'm going for a job at the moment so am staying low profile.]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-8983547673000819162009-08-12T05:31:49.358+01:002009-08-12T05:31:49.358+01:00Noticeable that none of the conservatives are ever...Noticeable that none of the conservatives are ever willing to reveal their identity.¨ MM<br /><br />That´s because they´re used to smearing others and don´t want to be persecuted by the likes of THEMSELVES...at the heart of most tight as*ed bullies there is a puffed up coward with spellcheck and cookie crumbs wedged into his keyboard.<br /><br />It doesn´t take a great deal of understanding to note that Bishop W has offered nothing of value to the ¨listening¨ process other than the apparent joy he receives from ¨listening¨ to the sound of his own voice...true, some untrustworthy people listen, but they are the same old mischiefmaking/twitching mob.Leonardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16667415590825321701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-33500538252176197692009-08-12T01:51:02.528+01:002009-08-12T01:51:02.528+01:00Noticeable that none of the conservatives are ever...Noticeable that none of the conservatives are ever willing to reveal their identity<br /><br />I think, looking at Wright's language and attitude, that here we have someone homophobic in the old sense of the word. He has a quite visceral dislike and fear of gay people, but most of all, it comes dowen to gay sex or what he imagines gat sex to be.Merseymikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07231364271812168188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-49535899199297125522009-08-12T01:09:59.811+01:002009-08-12T01:09:59.811+01:00Kurt -- I don't think it's realistic at al...Kurt -- I don't think it's realistic at all. But then, I'm not sure that realism is +Tom's strong suit. I certainly hope I'm wrong about that, and it may well be that +Tom doesn't really want to be ABC, he just wants to have that level of influence in the Church. I'm sure the government is aware of the problems that a Wright episcopacy is already causing in the C of E and in the Anglican Communion.<br /><br />I agree with "Anonymous" that +Tom would serve the Church much better if he would give up being Homophobe of Durham and instead finish up the "Christian Origins and the Question of God" series, which I think is really very good.Bill Moorheadhttp://wsjm-curmudgeon.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-21759200482255990882009-08-11T20:36:02.554+01:002009-08-11T20:36:02.554+01:00Don't worry about Tom Wright......worry about ...Don't worry about Tom Wright......worry about the ABC and his talk of "representative functions" in the church and "the Church Catholic"...... you can bash the bishop of Durham all you like but fact is that Rowan is not dancing to the CA tune.....Wake up ....noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-56008598938282925302009-08-11T20:10:25.836+01:002009-08-11T20:10:25.836+01:00Anonymous: you must surely be either Tom Wright...Anonymous: you must surely be either Tom Wright's mother or his wife... hardly anyone else who has come across him has such a starry-eyed view of him. It is not a sign of aa normal heterosexual British man in this day and age that he feels the need to express himself in such extreme ways about gay people. His diocese could surely better benefit from his mental acuity applied to the really pressing ethical problems of conemporary British society: endemic violence, drunkenness, teenage pregnancies and all the other dull sins that heterosexuals are prey to.Fr Markhttp://viaintegra.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-90931630157061715202009-08-11T20:03:55.174+01:002009-08-11T20:03:55.174+01:00Thank you for this. I second particularly what Eri...Thank you for this. I second particularly what Erika said.Göran Koch-Swahnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00925549945659350649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-53704418022793924702009-08-11T18:52:43.733+01:002009-08-11T18:52:43.733+01:00Some of us, in a moment of weakness have wished th...Some of us, in a moment of weakness have wished that Tom Wright would resign but for quite a different reason. We are waiting for his major series of books to be completed. I think he is a true northerner who has reached his ideal position. His friendship with Rowan Williams is well known and speculation that +Tom wishes to replace him is without foundation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8443447842611499359.post-929652672626490822009-08-11T18:50:19.516+01:002009-08-11T18:50:19.516+01:00“I think +Tom wants to drive +Rowan back to Oxford...“I think +Tom wants to drive +Rowan back to Oxford and succeed him at Lambeth.”--Bill Moorhead<br /><br />How realistic is Wright’s ambition to be ABC, Bill? Would the British government actually appoint someone who many Americans are growing to despise?Kurt from Brooklynnoreply@blogger.com